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Post by Jafar on Dec 12, 2011 12:54:35 GMT -6
I had always doubted. The more classes and the more I learned the more I started to question. It started when my mother got cancer when I was in 7th grade. I thought what God would do this to someone? It's a question that I understand is asked quite often. The Church had no answer than "God's will". My mother too has had many health issues. I know it's not easy for sure, it's heart-rending. But our Creator is not deserving of blame. What many people need to realize is that the purpose of hardships is to overcome them. This life is a test, full of calamities and reminders of its temporary nature, that can be passed with gratitude to God and patience. I know, when something goes wrong, people tend to blame the cause, but God does not deserve to be blamed. He created everything, including happiness, good, joy, love, etc. He created evil too, but does not accept evil from His creations. But if a difficulty comes someone's way, it doesn't mean that someone should curse God and panic. Look at math, if you have a negative number and multiply it by a negative, what do you get? A positive, because in the avoidance of negativity, there is positivity. God exists for sure, whatever happens to us. Our existence is proof of that. We need a Creator. We also need to understand that He owning everyone, He does what He wills with it. We have so many blessings, eyes, legs, hands, that some people take for granted. Nothing is an obligation on God, so people should be thankful for the good they have, and if something bad comes their way, they need to be humble and responsibly handle the hardship if they want to overcome it. The prophets, for example, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, received tons of hardships. God gave them these to show their people how to deal with difficulty - patience, courage and resolve. The best of people, like Maryam, Jesus's mother, who received lots of false accusations of adultery after Jesus's birth, faced the hardest of tests. Yet through gratitude to God, and submission to Him, they got relief in this life, and in the afterlife through enjoyment in their graves, and on the Day of Judgment whenever that occurs, and in Paradise (Heaven). Here's a simple metaphor: someone is in an enlightened room. They feel happy since they can see everything in the room. Then the light gets shut off, and the person feels sad. The person has two options: remain in the dark, or look for a light. If the person refuses to look for the light, he or she will remain miserable, but if he or she goes searching, one of two things will happen: 1. He or she will find the light, and be happier than at the start because overcoming a hardship boosted his or her confidence. 2. He or she will not find the light, but will be happier than before because he or she was enabled to look for it, and the possibility of finding a light still exists. In both cases, the person who searches for a light in darkness is more at peace than the person who remains in the darkness. What is clear light in terms of religion, though? What agrees with logic, and as much as this life may be difficult and arduous and painful, logic dictates that God has to exist. Accepting that is the first step to the relief of pain, because as is written above the Throne, the ceiling of Paradise, in a book... "The signs of mercy are greater than the signs of torture."
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Post by Gooman on Dec 12, 2011 14:16:43 GMT -6
Look at math, if you have a negative number and multiply it by a negative, what do you get? A positive, because in the avoidance of negativity, there is positivity. pokemonx.comicgenesis.com/d/20070425.html
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Post by daveshn on Dec 12, 2011 14:20:40 GMT -6
God exists for sure, whatever happens to us. Our existence is proof of that. We need a Creator. While it's true that anything that exists needs to be created, you're making a leap of assumption that the creator is God. How do you know it wasn't something or someone else? Maybe it was just random circumstance that we exist. What you have right now looks like this: 1. We exist 2. Something needed to create us. 3. ?????? 4. God created us. Keep in mind, this argument isn't concerning whether or not God exists. It's concerning whether or not God had any part in our creation.
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Post by Jafar on Dec 12, 2011 16:26:57 GMT -6
The definition of creation in relation to God is to bring something from the state of non-existence to the state of existence. Now, if someone claims that a knife, and not God, creates cutting, then they are saying that the knife, and not God, brings the cut from the state of non-existence to the state of existence, and saying this is claiming falsely that God's Power and Will is below that of a piece of sharp metal. This is a claim that God is weak, which does not make sense. It logically follows that only God creates in the meaning of bringing something from the state of non-existence into the state of existence.
The man does not create the pregnancy in the woman. Why? He does not even know if she conceived. The fire does not create the burning in the person. Why? Because it has no mind, and thus cannot determine if it burned something, or if it should burn. To be a Creator, knowledge of the creation, the will to create and the power to carry this will out are all necessary - and perfect knowledge, will and power, which belongs only to God.
God created everything: us, our intentions, our deeds. Creations merely acquire actions. They do not bring anything from the state of non-existence to existence. There are causes of certain results. Fire usually causes burning, but it does not create the burning, because it has no will or knowledge.
EDIT:
On the subject of humans, the human body is extremely complex. It makes no sense that the body would just come together and function the way it does without a Creator to create and change it. There are so many creations that are so complex that if someone asked the question, "Could any other creation have created this?", the obvious answer is "no". Whatever we humans make was willed in eternity by God for us to make. Our created will is under His Eternal (non-created) Will, and our power under His Power, and our knowledge under His Knowledge. To claim that anything was not created by God is to claim God is weak, which, again, is illogical.
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Post by Gooman on Dec 12, 2011 17:30:59 GMT -6
As a believer in the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent, perhaps I should cast some light on what I think of as the way life was created. God created the base types of life, bacteria and the like, maybe even a few mollusks, then left because he had more important stuff to do than baby a fledgling world along the path to anything. Then natural selection took over and the creatures best fit to survive were the ones who survived generation to generation, and evolution took place. Perhaps God got bored occasionally and popped in to help direct evolution a bit, like perhaps giving the spark that let some early primates begin to develop higher intelligence, but things mostly took place on a natural course.
Because, again, God just doesn't care. He has an entire galaxy to watch over, and I'm sure there's corners of it that have developed some creepy form of life none of us nor Him could fathom because he's just too damn busy to do a thorough search.
Back to the subject of Islam, if everything needs a creator, who created God? And I'm not going to take anything on the lines of 'he created himself,' because that just doesn't make sense.
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Post by Jafar on Dec 12, 2011 21:01:33 GMT -6
As a believer in the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent, perhaps I should cast some light on what I think of as the way life was created. God created the base types of life, bacteria and the like, maybe even a few mollusks, then left because he had more important stuff to do than baby a fledgling world along the path to anything. Then natural selection took over and the creatures best fit to survive were the ones who survived generation to generation, and evolution took place. Perhaps God got bored occasionally and popped in to help direct evolution a bit, like perhaps giving the spark that let some early primates begin to develop higher intelligence, but things mostly took place on a natural course. Because, again, God just doesn't care. He has an entire galaxy to watch over, and I'm sure there's corners of it that have developed some creepy form of life none of us nor Him could fathom because he's just too damn busy to do a thorough search. Forgetting and straining and all the things associated with a tiring job are attributable to creations, but not God. In Eternity (with no beginning), He Willed for the creations to come into existence when they did, do and will. God does not change and as you put it, search. That which has to search is weak, because it is ignorant of what it is looking for, and ignorance is imperfection, and God is clear of all imperfection. Back to the subject of Islam, if everything needs a creator, who created God? And I'm not going to take anything on the lines of 'he created himself,' because that just doesn't make sense. God has no beginning. He is not a creation. Yes, something does not create itself. That just doesn't make sense. What else doesn't make sense? That the Creator of everything would be created as some claim. Look back to my post with God's attributes. #3 is "Eternity". God has no beginning. He always existed. Everything else - the creations - has a beginning, given to them by God. On the subject of creations, and specifically Islamic creationism, as related in the Qur'an and Muhammad's sayings... In Eternity, God Willed for all the creations to be created at a time specific to each creation. God existed, without a beginning, before any creations existed, and with no beginning, He knew of the creations before they came into existence. Water was the first creation, and from it was created the Throne, the ceiling of Paradise and the largest of all creations. After the Throne was created, a Pen and Guarded Tablet were created. The Pen was ordered to write on the Guarded Tablet all that would happen in the future. After the Guarded Tablet was created, the seven earths (we live on the first, and the layers below the crust are the other six) and seven skies (heavens) were created. God created angels (always-obedient, winged, genderless intelligent beings who can take the form of men without sexual organs, and the most numerous of the creations) from light, jinn (the first being Satan; origin of the word 'genie') from pure fire and animals. Then, God ordered the angels to gather all types of soil, with all types of colours and temperments, from Earth, and to mix this with water from Paradise to form a clay... From this clay was molded the shape of a human. The human was the last type of creation. (The type of an iPhone is mineral, since that is what composes such a device.) The shape of Adam was over 20 metres tall, defect-free and strong. God ordered the angels to blow a soul into Adam, and the first man came alive as an adult. The souls of all humans were extracted from Adam's back, and testified that God exists. Then, when the human specific to the soul is conceived within a woman, the soul enters the carried fetus at a certain time (around four months into pregnancy). The soul forgets it testified that God exists upon entry into the fetus, but the human child can be reminded of this as he or she grows up and is able to comprehend that the entire universe must have a Creator. From Adam's rib was created, by God, Eve, an adult woman. Adam was married to Eve, and they went from Paradise to Earth (near modern Sri Lanka) and began to reproduce. The different colours and temperments of humans come from their origin, the clay that is a mix of earthen soil and Paradise water. Adam was created with knowledge of languages, cultivation and other knowledges necessary for human civilization. He taught his children and his last son, Seth, received revelation later, becoming the second prophet. Humans did not come from apes. A tomato is a tomato, no matter what one does to it, as is a species (animal or human). Species do make micro-evolutions, adaptations, but do not change species. Some species may be very similar to each other in one or more respects, but they are different species and do not "evolve" into a different one. What separates humans from animals is the sound mind. God gave many humans sound minds so that they could comprehend knowledge and make logical conclusions. The mind is a powerful tool with many capabilities, but with that many responsibilities. Adam and the other prophets are the most intelligent of humans, and the men who serve as examples of the way of life that is most truly beneficial to humans. Adam's first word was Alhamdulillah, Arabic for "I praise God". He came with the same message that Muhammad and all other prophets came with, that no one is God but God. When Adam committed the small sin of eating from a tree God forbade him to eat from, the first man immediately asked for forgiveness by the virtue of Muhammad. When asked by God how he knew of Muhammad, who had not been created yet, Adam replied with what means, "I saw his name by Yours [in Paradise] and knew that he must be of high value to You." Adam, along with all other prophets from Seth to Jesus, took an oath to follow Muhammad should he appear in his time. When Muhammad journeyed to Jerusalem, God gathered all the prophets before him in Al-Aqsa mosque, and the last and best of the prophets prayed as their leader.
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gatorbite92
Moderate Trainer
Surgeon in training
Posts: 162
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Post by gatorbite92 on Dec 13, 2011 10:47:59 GMT -6
My big problem with religion is that its texts have some big logical fallacies. For instance, Exodus 20:5, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," Jealousy is an inherently human emotion, and if God suffers from a human emotion than he cannot be perfect. Furthermore, if God is perfect and all knowing, why did he create a flawed creation? Before you say it isn't flawed, think of Lucifer. God knew he would betray him, but let him do what he wanted anyway? Why would God tempt Adam and Eve if he knew that they would fail his test? He was building flaws into his creation, and no perfect creator would suffer an imperfect creation. Also, all of this is assuming that EVERY SINGLE PERSON before Judaism/Christianity/Islam went to hell to be permanently separated from God because of the fault of a single woman. Anger and holding a grudge are also human emotions...
Edit: Just thought about this... all religion is human-centric. If we discover life on another planet with a completely different religious system/lack thereof, what does that mean?
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Post by Jafar on Dec 13, 2011 22:05:20 GMT -6
My big problem with religion is that its texts have some big logical fallacies. For instance, Exodus 20:5, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," The original Bible did not attribute God with human emotions, or any imperfection or resemblance to the creation for that matter. The Bible was changed by disbelievers after Jesus was raised to the heavens. Jealousy is an inherently human emotion, and if God suffers from a human emotion than he cannot be perfect. Furthermore, if God is perfect and all knowing, why did he create a flawed creation? God is perfect and all-knowing without a doubt. He created His creations the way He did because He does whatever He wills with them. Those humans who are humble enough to admit their flaws, and despite them show gratitude to their Creator, are rewarded. On the Day of Judgment we won't be held accountable for being born one-legged or other things out of our control, but rather with what we had a choice, such as our deeds. As I explained in my previous post, the purpose of hardships and defects is to test us, so that we can obtain reward if we overcome them with proper appreciation of God and the blessings He endowed upon us without being obliged to do so. Before you say it isn't flawed, think of Lucifer. God knew he would betray him, but let him do what he wanted anyway? Firstly... Satan is not an angel. Never was. Adam to Muhammad all taught that angels never disobey God, but disbelievers attributed angels with what did not befit them. Satan is the first jinn, and his disobedience of God and his blaspheming did not take anything away from God, because God being perfect, He does not change, He is not harmed. Satan's evil deeds show us what not to do; he is the self-proclaimed enemy of mankind, determined to bring down with him as many humans as he can, into a destructive, not to God, but to the creations who fall for devil traps, lifestyle. Why would God tempt Adam and Eve if he knew that they would fail his test? God is not to be questioned. We, the accountable humans, will be questioned for what we did in this life. Questioned about what? The disobediences we did without repenting before death. By willing His creation to disobey, and repent immediately, God is showing us that if we, imperfect beings, err, we should repent immediately. We are creations, imperfect, no way to get around that. It is what it is. But it is our responsibility to be grateful to our Creator by obeying Him and, if we ever slip, to realize what we did was wrong, repent for it and intend to avoid falling into the sin. Prophet Muhammad said what means, "The one who repents for a sin is as if he never did it." God is perfect. He never errs. We are imperfect. We err. But, we can get up afterward. He was building flaws into his creation, and no perfect creator would suffer an imperfect creation. My earlier replies to your other points serve as a reply to this one as well. It is impossible for God to be imperfect, whatever He does with His creation. That simple. Also, all of this is assuming that EVERY SINGLE PERSON before Judaism/Christianity/Islam went to hell to be permanently separated from God because of the fault of a single woman. Anger and holding a grudge are also human emotions... Alright, you're basing this on an altered text, the changed Bible... Let me put the truth bluntly: All sane, pubescent and call-of-Islam receiving (in a language they understand) human beings are held accountable for their own deeds and NOT the deeds of other human beings. Eve sinned, she repented, that simple, and her sin did not affect any other human being. Islam is not a man-made religion. It was revealed to the first man, and has saved those who believed in it from Hell since the time of the first man. And from the first man to the last, each man and woman will be held accountable for ONLY their own deeds, none else. Anything that tells you otherwise is misguidance. Edit: Just thought about this... all religion is human-centric. If we discover life on another planet with a completely different religious system/lack thereof, what does that mean? Islam is not human-centric... If there were no humans, just animals, it would still make sense that these animals have a perfect Creator. Humans didn't make up the definition of "perfect" or "God" or "Islam", the complete submission to God, themselves. These definitions and many others were revealed by God through Jibril (Angel Gabriel) to Adam. And if we do discover life on another planet with a different religious system, what does that mean? It means God willed, in Eternity (without a beginning), for life to be on that planet at that time and to worship whatever it worships. Everything happens by the Will of God, and always has, and always will.
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dravarian26
Moderate Trainer
AKA D_Master_Funk (Squid)
Posts: 265
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Post by dravarian26 on Dec 14, 2011 21:30:57 GMT -6
I'm enjoying reading Jafar's responses to these questions. I often think of those kinds of questions at church. But don't wish to be rude at nitpick at someone's beliefs. I don't have any faith in God or put any reliance in him/ Him/ it, but I do enjoy speculating about his attributes and whatnot if he were to exist. Religion is decided pretty much by whichever version of God/ the universe you like most, so making up my own version seems to be the best bet to ever believing in anything.
I do not think of God not as some incredibly awesome guy in a paradise of white and niceness. I think of God more as a benevolent sentient force. Kind of like just some omnipresent substance that is part of everything. I feel like imagining him that way makes it easier to believe in his inclusion in all of creation. When I think of a man it feels as though he is separate and judging. If he is everything then it makes sense for him to be concerned with every detail and concerned with giant stuff too. Like how humans can be pained by the smallest paper cuts or splinters, but still feel larger pain like starvation. Every living thing's life is felt by him along with everything inanimate as well.
Another thing I'd like to think is that while omnipresent he is not immune to time, the main reason is because I can comprehend space being occupied in multiple areas, time is a bit (by a bit i mean impossible) more difficult to comprehend multiple simultaneous locations in time. The closest I can get is imagining some guy watching thousands of screens showing different times. comprehending them all. Or to imagine his consciousness flitting around different time lines
Which can transition in the whole 'destiny' thing of your entire life being planned out. that is a depressing thought and makes no sense if everyone keeps talking about free will. I'd like to think that there are hundreds of trillions of possible outcomes for every event depending on so many variables and situations that anything can happen, but obviously not everything will, it depends on your choices and just a bit of random luck.
That is all I feel like blathering on about right now, just wanted somewhere to type for a bit and this seemed like a fun place to do so
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Post by Jafar on Dec 15, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -6
I don't have any faith in God or put any reliance in him/ Him/ it, but I do enjoy speculating about his attributes and whatnot if he were to exist. God's existence is not something that is a matter of opinion. Everything has to have a creator, except that creator. The sound mind, which we humans have to allow us to understand basic truths, does not accept the non-existence of God or a doubt in God's existence. As for His attributes, as with His Self, no speculation is needed. Logically, God is attributed with all proper perfection and clear of all imperfection. What is meant by proper perfection? Something which attributed to a creation which may be perfect for that creation may not befit God, that is, be imperfection when attributed to God. For example, Muhammad is the most handsome of humans, so Muhammad had a perfect look. But God has no look, for He exists without a shape or place, because that which has a shape or place is in need of being given that specific shape or place. There are matters of fact and opinion, and the matters of existence of God and His attributes are matters of fact. Religion is decided pretty much by whichever version of God/ the universe you like most, so making up my own version seems to be the best bet to ever believing in anything. There is One True, Perfect God, and then a bunch of creations that some people misguidingly call "God". It doesn't make sense to make a "substitute" for God; for example, if one was sick and only one medication could cure them of the specific disease, they would insist on using only that one medication if it was available, and nothing else. God always exists and thus His mercy is always available for those who choose to believe in Him properly and rely on Him, so it does not make sense to, when the One True God can be relied upon, to turn to a creation and falsely label it "God". I do not think of God not as some incredibly awesome guy in a paradise of white and niceness. Like you, Muslims believe that God is not in Paradise. But, unlike you, Muslims believe that He is not anywhere. He exists without a place, yet He knows of everywhere and everything that goes on in every place. I think of God more as a benevolent sentient force. Kind of like just some omnipresent substance that is part of everything. I feel like imagining him that way makes it easier to believe in his inclusion in all of creation. When I think of a man it feels as though he is separate and judging. If he is everything then it makes sense for him to be concerned with every detail and concerned with giant stuff too. Like how humans can be pained by the smallest paper cuts or splinters, but still feel larger pain like starvation. Every living thing's life is felt by him along with everything inanimate as well. God is not "everything". He created, knows of and manages everything. God is not "everywhere". He created, knows of and manages everywhere. Omnipresence does not befit God; none of the prophets said it did. There is no part of God in anything, because to say so is claiming that God resembles the creation, and thus is imperfect, which is false and illogical. There are basically three types of beliefs about God that are false: 1. Some believe that God does not exist. 2. Some believe God has a partner. 3. Some believe a "part of God" is in everything. None of these make sense, because they all attribute neediness to God, and God being truly perfect, He does not need anything. Another thing I'd like to think is that while omnipresent he is not immune to time, the main reason is because I can comprehend space being occupied in multiple areas, time is a bit (by a bit i mean impossible) more difficult to comprehend multiple simultaneous locations in time. The closest I can get is imagining some guy watching thousands of screens showing different times. comprehending them all. Or to imagine his consciousness flitting around different time lines Time does not elapse on God. Time is a creation. What is the definition of time? The comparison of the occurence of two creations. For example, my lifespan is the time between my birth (a creation) and death (a creation). God is not a creation, so clearly time does not elapse on Him. And as I already established earlier, God exists without a place. Which can transition in the whole 'destiny' thing of your entire life being planned out. that is a depressing thought and makes no sense if everyone keeps talking about free will. I'd like to think that there are hundreds of trillions of possible outcomes for every event depending on so many variables and situations that anything can happen, but obviously not everything will, it depends on your choices and just a bit of random luck. Simply put, everything that happens happens by the Eternal, Everlasting Will, Knowledge and Power of God. Everything that does not happen does not happen because God did not will for it to happen. (Remember though that God's Power is not in relation to the impossible. An example of the impossible is the false claim that God has a place. So if one says, "Can God have a place?", the right answer is, "That is illogic" rather than the weakness-attributing "Yes" or "No".) God knows everything about us, in our past, present and future. Our fates are already written, but since we do not know everything, we must live using what we do know in gratitude to God. Two verses of the Qur'an say a lot. One, the 10th verse of Surah Ibrahim, transliterated from Arabic as "Afil-laahi shakk", means, "There is no doubt in the Existence of God." The other, part of the 11th verse of Surah Ash-Shura, transliterated from Arabic as "Laysa kamithilihii shay'", means, "He [God] does not resemble any of the creations in any way." When someone uses their sound mind, they reach the conclusions that God must exist, and that He does not resemble the creations in any way. These are facts, not matters of opinion. A matter of opinion is something like, say, a hockey player scores 25 goals in a season, but is lazy and disliked by his teammates, and another player scores 17 goals, but has a strong work ethic and his teammates like him. One may, without being illogical, doubt which player is more effective for winning hockey games. But... One cannot logically doubt the fact that these players and everything about them, including their goals, must have a Creator, who is attributed with all proper perfection and clear of all imperfection. Unlike the matter of which hockey player is more effective, God and His attributes are not a "No right and wrong answer" matter. He exists, and He is truly perfect.
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Post by eviceturboman on Jan 29, 2012 14:03:58 GMT -6
Here's the thing. Our minds have limits, we DO NOT fully understand the Universe. We only come up with theories which include Black Holes, Gravity and some 'certain' laws of physics.
Now, to say there is a creator is hard to understand. Since, what created the creator? How can a creator emerge out of nowhere? Since we'll never most likely find the answer, it's pointless debating that there is a god. The Universe could be an endless loop, the Universe might of never began and might never end. Who knows? The answer is that we should just enjoy life, be happy and focus on looking after Earth.
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Post by Jafar on Jan 30, 2012 11:54:05 GMT -6
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Post by eviceturboman on Jan 31, 2012 12:50:05 GMT -6
Not every religion is perfect. The Bible is strongly against homosexual, it has also been known to support incest, slavery and God killing innocent people over beliefs. Also, atheists aren't perfect either. I admit, there is a possiblity of a god and I'm an atheist, but the amount of biased behaviour in Atheism stuns me.
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dravarian26
Moderate Trainer
AKA D_Master_Funk (Squid)
Posts: 265
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Post by dravarian26 on Jan 31, 2012 14:56:00 GMT -6
funfun I am interested by your replies and will continue the conversation. I don't have any faith in God or put any reliance in him/ Him/ it, but I do enjoy speculating about his attributes and whatnot if he were to exist. God's existence is not something that is a matter of opinion. Everything has to have a creator, except that creator. The sound mind, which we humans have to allow us to understand basic truths, does not accept the non-existence of God or a doubt in God's existence. As for His attributes, as with His Self, no speculation is needed. Logically, God is attributed with all proper perfection and clear of all imperfection. What is meant by proper perfection? Something which attributed to a creation which may be perfect for that creation may not befit God, that is, be imperfection when attributed to God. For example, Muhammad is the most handsome of humans, so Muhammad had a perfect look. But God has no look, for He exists without a shape or place, because that which has a shape or place is in need of being given that specific shape or place. There are matters of fact and opinion, and the matters of existence of God and His attributes are matters of fact. This repsonse I can disagree with, I believe god's existence is entirely a matter of opinion, mostly because all of your 'facts' are philosophical in nature. Along with most of the facts coming from a scripture copied by humans from God. Human's are fallible which even if God divinely aided the writing of these scriptures, humans will still interpret things differently. Even in Muslim there are various sects, and although I am guessing you will say they are wrong or mistaken, they will say the same about you I am sure. So at that point it comes down to what I choose to believe, which means it is my opinion. There is One True, Perfect God, and then a bunch of creations that some people misguidingly call "God". It doesn't make sense to make a "substitute" for God; for example, if one was sick and only one medication could cure them of the specific disease, they would insist on using only that one medication if it was available, and nothing else. God always exists and thus His mercy is always available for those who choose to believe in Him properly and rely on Him, so it does not make sense to, when the One True God can be relied upon, to turn to a creation and falsely label it "God". I can understand your point here, but your analogy is flawed to me. Just because doctors say there is only one cure for my disease does not mean that they are correct, different doctors may have different prescriptions. You may have meant it in a different way, but I doubt any metaphor can be used in the context that you wish to apply it to here. All words can be rearranged to fit an argument. Like you, Muslims believe that God is not in Paradise. But, unlike you, Muslims believe that He is not anywhere. He exists without a place, yet He knows of everywhere and everything that goes on in every place. I can not understand this concept of existence without being within some form of time and space, I doubt any human can. Perhaps one day I will have an epiphany and be able to comprehend the reality of such a thing, but until then this point in meaninglessGod is not "everything". He created, knows of and manages everything. God is not "everywhere". He created, knows of and manages everywhere. Omnipresence does not befit God; none of the prophets said it did. There is no part of God in anything, because to say so is claiming that God resembles the creation, and thus is imperfect, which is false and illogical. There are basically three types of beliefs about God that are false: 1. Some believe that God does not exist. 2. Some believe God has a partner. 3. Some believe a "part of God" is in everything. None of these make sense, because they all attribute neediness to God, and God being truly perfect, He does not need anything. None of those make sense in your definition of god, some people have separate definitions. I was just pointing out my definition, that I made up. I can see no difference between myself making up a definition and Muhammad making up a definition, I have not seen proof from either of us to back up our ideas.Time does not elapse on God. Time is a creation. What is the definition of time? The comparison of the occurence of two creations. For example, my lifespan is the time between my birth (a creation) and death (a creation). God is not a creation, so clearly time does not elapse on Him. And as I already established earlier, God exists without a place. I like that description of time, and assuming your previous statements (which I either don't agree with, or am unable to understand) are correct, than this idea makes sense to me not much else to say here.Which can transition in the whole 'destiny' thing of your entire life being planned out. that is a depressing thought and makes no sense if everyone keeps talking about free will. I'd like to think that there are hundreds of trillions of possible outcomes for every event depending on so many variables and situations that anything can happen, but obviously not everything will, it depends on your choices and just a bit of random luck. Simply put, everything that happens happens by the Eternal, Everlasting Will, Knowledge and Power of God. Everything that does not happen does not happen because God did not will for it to happen. (Remember though that God's Power is not in relation to the impossible. An example of the impossible is the false claim that God has a place. So if one says, "Can God have a place?", the right answer is, "That is illogic" rather than the weakness-attributing "Yes" or "No".) God knows everything about us, in our past, present and future. Our fates are already written, but since we do not know everything, we must live using what we do know in gratitude to God. I argue the same point here as i did in my original statement. If I believed everything is written in stone, and I have no free will, then I would lose a large sense of purpose. Of course God might will for me to change something, but I myself have the problem of pride and self-reliance that I dislike not being able to have my decisions mean anything. If I did believe in this interpretation of god I would not be a happy person. And I would like to be happy.Two verses of the Qur'an say a lot. One, the 10th verse of Surah Ibrahim, transliterated from Arabic as "Afil-laahi shakk", means, "There is no doubt in the Existence of God." The other, part of the 11th verse of Surah Ash-Shura, transliterated from Arabic as "Laysa kamithilihii shay'", means, "He [God] does not resemble any of the creations in any way." When someone uses their sound mind, they reach the conclusions that God must exist, and that He does not resemble the creations in any way. These are facts, not matters of opinion. Again with the fact thing, I disagree for the same reasons as before, I do not believe, in what you state as facts.A matter of opinion is something like, say, a hockey player scores 25 goals in a season, but is lazy and disliked by his teammates, and another player scores 17 goals, but has a strong work ethic and his teammates like him. One may, without being illogical, doubt which player is more effective for winning hockey games. But... a matter of opinion is something like deciding whether the ideas of one man are fact, over the ideas of someone else, both of whom give no physical proof.One cannot logically doubt the fact that these players and everything about them, including their goals, must have a Creator, who is attributed with all proper perfection and clear of all imperfection. Unlike the matter of which hockey player is more effective, God and His attributes are not a "No right and wrong answer" matter. He exists, and He is truly perfect. I can very easily doubt the fact that these objects have a creator, because it is not a fact, it is an opinion. I accept the fact that they exist (that's funny because these hockey players do not actually exist outside of our theoretical debate) but I see no correlation between their existence and a willing creator, merely the fact that they had a point of creation.
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Post by Jafar on Feb 1, 2012 14:06:45 GMT -6
About the Bible, the so-called Bible we see today is as I mentioned changed by humans. God, being perfect, does not contradict Himself. There are absolutely no contradictions in the Qur'an, none in the sayings of Prophet Muhammad, and no verse of the Qur'an contradicts the saying of Muhammad or vice versa. God promised that the Qur'an would be preserved, and His Promise is always fulfilled.
Now, for further logical proofs...
Say someone is standing still, and feels a strike in the back. They will turn around and even if they see no one who could have delivered the blow, the person would know for certain that something hit them. The sound mind does not accept that a hit is without a hitter, a writing is without a writer, or a building is without a builder, for example, so certainly the sound mind does not accept that this entire universe and everything within it is without a Creator. It follows that a Creator must exist.
Now, how does one, using the sound mind, prove that this Creator is One, meaning He is without partners? Say someone made the claim that there are two "Creators". Say one of these "Creators" wanted me alive, and the other wanted me dead. It is impossible for me to be dead and alive at the same time. So the will of one of these "Creators" would be fulfilled, while the will of the other would not be, making the other weak, and that which is weak is not God. If both of these so-called "Creators" willed for me to be alive, they would need each other's permission to carry out their will, and needing anything is weakness, and that which is weak is not God. The same logic applies for three, four, five, a million, etc. claimed "Creators". So it follows that there is only One Creator, also known as God.
The sound mind cannot deny the Existence and Oneness of God, no matter how hard the person tries. Denying those Attributes of God simply goes against logic and insults the capacity of the human mind, and insults the Creator of the mind.
You say that humans cannot imagine that which does not have a size, and you are correct... But imagining and knowing are different things. We may not be able to imagine God in our minds, since the Creator of shapes, sizes, colours and places is without any of these, but we know that God exists. The logic behind this is also simple. Everything which we imagine in our minds, whether it be as small as an atom or as big as a body six million times the size of the sky, has a limit, defined as an end. That which has a limit is in need of being specified with that limit. Who specified the limits of creations? God. In order for anything in this universe, the universe included, to exist, of course there needs to be a Creator who has perfect Power over His creations, perfect Will which cannot be opposed and perfect Knowledge of all His creations. How can there be a video game without a developer with power, will and knowledge over the game? How can there be an orange plantation without a planter with power, will and knowledge over the plantation? As I stated before, the sound mind does not accept the existence of an action without an actor who carried it out.
Now, some people falsely claim that there is "a chain of creation". That is, they falsely claim that God created things and then these things created more things. Now, creations are of two types, those without wills and those with them. Those without wills, such as water and rocks, certainly cannot create, because they don't know anything. Those creations with wills, such as humans, have a will, but it is not always carried out, and sometimes they do things against their will!
How can someone claim that the Creator of something does not have His will always fulfilled? It's impossible, because if the universe was created and managed by something imperfect, there would be absolutely no order. Think about the functions of the human body, the water cycle, the seasons... Certainly how these amazing processes have a Creator Whose Will is never opposed. Proofs of God's Existence are all around us. These proofs are our own existences.
Now, since as I stated before, everything we can imagine in our mind either has no will or an imperfect will, it follows that everything we can imagine in our mind, basically, everything with a limit, is not a Creator. What is common among all what we imagine in our minds? Limits, sizes, places. These limits, sizes and places certainly did not come from nowhere. These limits, sizes and places have a Creator, One Creator, without a partner in creation, and this Creator is known as God.
The correct answer to the annoying and illogical question "Who created God?" is "God is not a creation; rather, He created all the creations, and has always existed, without a beginning and without an end." The definition of a creation is something whose existence was preceded by a state of non-existence, and something whose existence can possibly be followed by a state of non-existence. To falsely claim God is a creation is to say at one point, God did not exist. The sound mind does not accept this. Animals don't accept this. The donkey that gets hit in the neck knows something hit it. For this universe to exist, for your fingers which you type with to exist, it follows that the Creator of this universe, your fingers, your intentions and the letters you type has always existed.
Where people get confused about religion is when they start to believe that God resembles them, that is, has a place or a limit. Now, anything that exists in a place either is bigger than the place, the same size as the place or smaller than the place. In all three cases that which exists in a place has a limit, and it is not possible that the specifier of these limits, the Creator of these limits, would Himself be limited, because that which is limited cannot bring anything from the state of non-existence to the state of existence. As I said before, the man does not even know the exact moment he makes a woman pregnant. The knife does not always cut, and since it has no mind nor will, is not aware of when it cuts or does not.
Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, Prophet Muhammad's best friend, said what means: "If someone comes to the conclusion that they cannot imagine God in their minds, then they have come to a conclusion of truth. If someone tries to imagine God in their minds, then they do not know God."
Do we judge statements based on people? No. We judge people based on statements, and Abu Bakr's statement, with careful consideration, does make sense.
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