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Post by Zombie Clown on Feb 10, 2012 23:38:03 GMT -6
but in saying he knows of everything and wills it to exist, how can it be non-existant if he knows how to make it. as it clearly exists if he has knowledge of it.
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dravarian26
Moderate Trainer
AKA D_Master_Funk (Squid)
Posts: 265
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Post by dravarian26 on Feb 11, 2012 16:28:20 GMT -6
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiJ-WuOSL0kThis lady is the reason I go to church. She used to be my youth group leader, but then she became our pastor when our church branched off. Pastor always has really interesting sermons. Her sermons are always interesting and informative even if I may not believe what she is preaching, but they always make me see things in a different way. Her sermons are always hopeful and trying to make you a better person in order to be better person and not because you should fear god and hell. She often goes on mission trips to places like africa and egypt and new orleans, I will be going to New Orleans this summer with some others in my church to help in rebuilding the city and surrounding area (yeah remember that hurricane from like 6 years ago? still a problem.)
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Post by Jafar on Feb 12, 2012 16:42:38 GMT -6
Alright, if you want me to be "less objective" in explanations, and go for explanations that might be easier to understand, I'll be that...
Creation
Who is a painter? Someone who has the skill of painting. Who is a cashier? Someone who has the skill of operating a cash register. Who is a creator? The one who has the power to create, which is different from the term make as create, as reflected in the adjective "creative", is often used to describe someone who makes a lot out of little... And so the strictest definition of Creator is the One who makes anything, out of nothing.
Does a doctor make medicine out of nothing? No. Does a cook make dough out of nothing? No. Does any person make anything out of nothing? No. They all require raw materials, and are in need of those raw materials to be there for them. So obviously those raw materials have a creator Who can bring things from non-existence into existence. This is the definition of Creator, and as you can notice with the examples I gave about humans, the difference between this definition and the definition of medicine-maker, dough-maker, etc. illustrates the difference between creation in relation to God and "creation" in relation to what creations make.
In simpler terms...
Godhood is... Taking something from non-existence into existence. God has this power.
Human "creative" ability is... Taking one or more existing things to make a combination of them. Humans sometimes have this power. They only have it when they are inspired and energized. Who gives them that inspiration and energy? God, Who also gave them their bodies. Without arms a person's abilities are severely limited.
Now, logically, God has always existed, because that which has a beginning is weak. Also logically, God existed when nothing else existed, because to claim anything other than God has no beginning is to claim that God has a partner, which as I explained earlier is illogical. How could any creation have existed without a beginning when every single creation has a limit, and thus is in need of being specified with that limit? So with those two logical conclusions it follows that God existed and nothing else existed, and since we exist now, we thus know that things, like us, were brought from non-existence to existence. By Who? Obviously, the only One who existed when no creation did: God.
Godhood is the power to bring bodies from non-existence into existence. No creation is attributed with Godhood, because every creation which is the cause of anything, for example, a video game, takes already existing things to make something. God created the Throne (the ceiling of Paradise) from water, but remember: God created water when no creation existed before it, and, water has no will, so it could not have brought the Throne from non-existence to existence. Humans do have a will, but as I mentioned, it is imperfect and fallible, and so no human creates in the meaning of non-existent -> existent.
Judgments of the Sound Mind
This is directed to ZC... There are three judgments of the sound mind, the intellectual necessity, the intellectual impossibility and the intellectual possibility.
The necessity is what the sound mind cannot deny. For example, the mind cannot deny that this universe has a Creator who existed eternally before any of the creations and Whose Existence does not end.
The impossibility is what the sound mind cannot accept. For example, the mind cannot accept that a man's biological son was born after his biological father. The mind also cannot accept the false claims by some that God is created, i.e., has a beginning.
The possibility is that which the mind can accept its existence and its non-existence. Existence is defined as being. For example, the city of Vancouver did not exist 1000 years ago. Yes, God knows about Vancouver with His Eternal Knowledge, but did Vancouver always exist? Of course not, because 1000 years ago, there was no Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Vancouver does exist now, so it follows that the existence of Vancouver is an intellectual possibility. Examples of intellectual possiblities are anything which is neither an intellectual necessity nor an intellectual impossibility. For example, we haven't landed a human on Mars, but it could happen, because Earth is a place and Mars is a place and it is possible that that which exists in a place (a human being in a space shuttle in space) can transfer to another place (Mars).
So, the possibility of humans landing on Mars exists, as unlikely as it may seem, but has the actual thing of humans landing on Mars existed in the past or present? No. Did Michael Jackson live one more day older than he did? No. But the mind accepts the possibility of a human being living a life one day longer than what God Willed the lifespan of Michael Jackson to be.
The scholars of Islam defined the following three Attributes of God as such:
Power - An eternal and everlasting Attribute of God with which God gives existence to or annihilates what is intellectually possible. God's Power is not in relation to the intellectually necessary nor the intellectually impossible.
Non-existence and annihilation do not apply to God. Hence, the mind does not accept the notion of God creating or annihilating Himself. This means that such a matter does not occur.
Existence does not apply to the intellectually impossible. The existence of a god with God is intellectually impossible. Hence, it is not mentally sound to say that God creates or annihilates such a "non-existing" thing.
The fact that the Power of God is not related to the intellectually necessary and the intellectually impossible is not powerlessness, but rather a clear indication of the perfect Power of God. Also, this fact conforms to the judgment of the mind: the intellectual impossibility does not turn into an intellectual possibility or necessity, and the intellectually necessary does not turn into an intellectual possibility or impossibility, and the intellectual possibility does not turn into an intellectual necessity or impossibility. The existence of a sea of mercury is an intellectual possibility, although it does not customarily occur. The Power of God is related to it. God has the Power to create a sea of mercury if He wills.
Will - An eternal and everlasting Attribute of God with which God specifies the creations (which are intellectual possibilities) with some of the attributes which are possible for them to have. An example is specifying eyes with the green colour instead of other possible colours. The Will of God is never opposed. Everything that God Willed to be shall be, and everything that God did not Will to be shall not be. The Will of God is not in relation to the intellectual necessity or intellectual impossibility.
Knowledge - An eternal and everlasting Attribute of God. God knew eternally about His Self, Attributes and His creations. Nothing is beyond His Knowledge. He knows everything that happened in the past, everything that happens now, everything that will happen in the future, and if He had willed for something to happen differently than he did, how it would have happened. He knows everything about what happens and what does not happen.
In a summary response to your post, ZC, God knows of His creations before they come into existence... But not every intellectual possibility exists at a specific time, or any time in some cases.
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Post by daveshn on Feb 12, 2012 19:04:07 GMT -6
So was I right when I said that your definition was that God was the one who created the basic strings of energy and anything else we can't observe yet and, thus, God's the only one who gets the title of creator because of that?
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skypaw298
Novice Trainer
Lucario of Epic Proportions!
Posts: 46
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Post by skypaw298 on Feb 13, 2012 8:21:23 GMT -6
Religious views...? I have none. God is nonexistent to me. I'm an Atheist. I was raised Christian, but, ya know, it didn't work out for me :/
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Post by Jafar on Feb 13, 2012 14:05:57 GMT -6
David, you are right there. God created everything, including the basic strings. The simplest and most complex of creations do not bring anything from non-existence to existence, but merely make things from other things, such as a pie from its ingredients. God created the pie, all its ingredients, the intention of the baker, the baker himself... Etc.
Skypaw, as I mentioned in earlier posts, the existence of God is not a matter of doubt. You didn't come out of nowhere, and neither did your parents. Everything with any limit (i.e. a size) needs a Creator to bring it into existence, and this same Creator changes His creations as He wills.
Religion is obviously a sensitive matter, and that's why if a certain religion makes a claim that doesn't make sense, and someone is told by their guardian, for example, to adhere to that claim, won't someone feel like they're building their life on an unstable, baseless foundation? How can someone claim that Jesus died for people's sins, and then condemn murder that happens now? How can someone claim that only a certain group of people who are descendants of a certain man be good people, and everyone else bad? How can someone claim that someone or something that resembles them, for example, Jesus, or a river, or a cow, is their Creator?
A lot of people throw the term "God" around without actually realizing what it means. If someone loves a river, or a cow, or Jesus, they should love what they love for what it actually is and not what a human being claims to be unless the claim of the human makes sense. Does it make sense that a river controls our lives in every single way, and with knowledge of what it is and does? Or a cow? Or Jesus? No. I love rivers because of their beauty, their fluid motion, and their water. I love cows because of their milk, their meat and how adorable they are. I love Jesus because he's among the best of the creations, the prophets, and a slave of God, as he said himself, not God or a so-called "part of God". But do any of them bring anything from non-existence to existence? No. Would you like someone to call you a pilot if you knew absolutely nothing about how to fly a plane? Would you like that someone to put you in a plane and tell you to fly it, when you know that if you tried, you'd likely crash? Would Jesus like to be told what he is not? Of course not. If someone loves a river, a cow, Jesus, or any creation, they should of course love its Creator, and loving anything is not by calling it what it is not. Calling anything what it is not is insulting it by either degrading it or putting it higher than it is, because if you go up to a non-pilot and tell him he can fly a plane right away without any training, that's a dangerous thought to put in his head.
In summary of the above paragraph, if it doesn't make sense to call everyone on a city street a nuclear scientist who aces every nuclear science and math exam he takes, it doesn't make sense to call a creation God.
Now, given that I'm claiming that Islam makes sense, I'll list why in a chain:
- We know logically that God exists, since every doing needs a doer, so certainly this entire universe needs a Creator.
- We know that a man named Muhammad lived in the past because this knowledge was passed down to us by large groups of people in such a way that it could not be a lie, the same way we know men like George Washington and Julius Caeser and women like Helen Keller and Caeser's wife Calpurnia lived in the past.
- We know that events such as the moon being split upon being pointed at by a person or something in the future being flawlessly predicted are extraordinary and cannot be imitated. This means that the performer of this extraordinary action, which is greater than magic since it cannot be copied, must have the support of his Creator. If this action comes with a claim of prophethood, it is known as a miracle, and proves the truthfulness of the man's claim of prophethood. The man claims he is a prophet, so naturally the people ask him to show him something extraordinary. If he does something extraordinary, like split the moon or have a dead lizard come to life and witness that he is a prophet, something that is witnessed to for sure not be an illusion, then his claim is proven, and the man is a prophet.
- What traits would a prophet, a Messenger of God, have? Honesty. If a person tells even one lie, then will everyone trust what he says? No, if he makes a bold claim of prophethood, they will say, "Did you not lie before?" So, prophets do not lie. God created them as honest people who never fibbed. He also made them trustworthy, handsome, eloquent, and free of repelling attributes. Nothing about prophets can be used to discredit them. Muhammad married many women to spread the knowledge of marital obligations and purification rituals, not for sexual desire. His first wife was fifteen years older than him, and he declined to marry a very beautiful woman offered to him. He spent his nights praying regularly rather than spending it all in bed. Yes, marriage is permissible. Muhammad did marry. But what did he not do? Mistreat his wives, harm them, or cheat on them. This man, who had thousands of miracles to support his claim of prophethood, and thus confirmation of his honesty, said himself what means, "The best of you are those who treat your wives well, and I, as revealed to me by my Creator, am the best of you." Whatever claim that a true prophet, not those who claim prophethood but do not have a miracle to prove it, has anything to discredit him is a false claim, fabricated by people to misguide others. Just because we do not live next door to a prophet now does not mean they do not exist! Why would so many people throughout history name their kids names like Jacob and Joseph and David and Adam and Muhammad and John if not for a truly great man bearing that name? In summary, prophets are messengers of God, and are truthful in everything they say, their miracles proving their claims.
- Given that prophets are truthful, we can take Muhammad's constant claim that the Qur'an is not authored by him nor Angel Gabriel, but rather is revelation from God which, as mentioned in the Qur'an, will be presevered, not changed by deviant-hearted people like the books revealed to Moses (Torah), David (Psalms) and Jesus (Bible). In the Qur'an are mentioned commonly known things like Paradise (Heaven) and Hell, angels, devils, prophet stories and scientific facts just recently noticed by modern scientists. The Qur'an also clears up confusion about past events; for example, it explicitly states that Jesus was not killed, but rather a companion of his who offered himself in Jesus's place was given the man's likeness and crucified while Jesus was ascended to the second sky, and will return soon to fight injustice. And God being generous, he rewarded the brave volunteer; Prophet Muhammad said what means that Jesus promised his companion that he would be his close friend in Paradise in the afterlife.
We all hear the term "miracle" thrown around. But like the term "God", it is often misplaced. The fact the term exists though should make it very clear to the mind that true miracles did happen, and have a purpose, that purpose being to show people who they should trust.
No prophet was a woman, but Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the best of women as Muhammad stated. She was extremely pious, and was taught by Prophet Zachary, the father of Prophet Yahya, who Christians refer to as "John the Baptist". In truth Yahya is John the Muslim; all prophets came with the belief in One True Perfect God, not with the belief that something with a limit, for example, a river, cow or Jesus, was God. The belief in One God is the belief of someone who submits to God, and the one who truly submits to God and does not object to His Will is a Muslim.
As I stated before, I love rivers. I love cows, too. I love Jesus more than almost every creation, except the three prophets with a higher rank than him: Muhammad, the greatest, then Abraham, then Moses. But I do not exaggerate about any creation. I do not call any creation "God". For it is not truly love for something to call something what it is not, and how can someone love something if that someone does not love Who brought that thing into existence?
I'm certain that most people are fans of athletes, and I'm sure they'd freak out if someone claimed their favourite athlete scored less goals than he or she actually did. Similarly, I'm certain that most people, if they needed someone to perform heart surgery on them, would freak out if someone claimed a two-year-old boy with scissors could almost certainly perform the surgery without complications.
Who is more deserving of respect than an athlete or a heart surgeon? The Creator of the athlete and the heart surgeon. There is a verse of the Qur'an which means, "Do not worship the sun or the moon; rather, worship God, who created them."
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Post by daveshn on Feb 13, 2012 16:20:53 GMT -6
David, you are right there. God created everything, including the basic strings. The simplest and most complex of creations do not bring anything from non-existence to existence, but merely make things from other things, such as a pie from its ingredients. God created the pie, all its ingredients, the intention of the baker, the baker himself... Etc. Alright so we have an understanding. God has been completely useless since right after the beginning of the universe.
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Post by Jafar on Feb 13, 2012 16:45:55 GMT -6
Absolutely wrong about that, David... God created everything, the strings, the product of those strings, etc., etc., etc. If someone claims that God could possibly be useless, they are saying He changes, and that is illogic. If someone claims that God is not creating anything now, then would I be typing right now? Existing for that matter? No. The sound mind does not accept the non-existence of God ever.
What you should understand by now is that everything except God needs God, at all times. You would not be able to even breathe if not for Him Willing you to do so.
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Post by daveshn on Feb 13, 2012 16:56:24 GMT -6
Absolutely wrong about that, David... God created everything, the strings, the product of those strings, etc., etc., etc. If someone claims that God could possibly be useless, they are saying He changes, and that is illogic. If someone claims that God is not creating anything now, then would I be typing right now? Existing for that matter? No. The sound mind does not accept the non-existence of God ever. What you should understand by now is that everything except God needs God, at all times. You would not be able to even breathe if not for Him Willing you to do so. Hmm... I suppose 'useless' was the wrong word to use. But the way I see it, God created the basics of matter and energy and how they would interact. God then set them loose. This is like grabbing an entire bin full of those flat, single square Lego pieces, dumping them on the floor, and let the people you've instructed make everything out of them. Yes, there are Lego pieces that can't be made with just the flat one-pieces, but just work with me. We owe God for the Legos and the instructions on how to make new things with them, but God has done nothing since.
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Post by Jafar on Feb 13, 2012 17:10:00 GMT -6
Nothing happens except in accordance to the Eternal and Everlasting Will of God, and thus it makes no sense for you to claim that "God has done nothing since". God does not change at all, so He does not change from creating things to resting. Even stillness, that is, no motion, requires God to create that stillness.
Prophet Muhammad stated that one of the names of God is transliterated as Al-Mateen. This name means, "The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted, and Who does not get tired." This makes logical sense. That which is interrupted is weak, limited, and that which is limited is in need of being specificed with that limit. The specifier? God, Who also has the name Al-Waalee -- The One Who owns things and manages them.
You were born on a certain day. If someone claims that on that day, "God did nothing", they are saying that you were never created, because as I have explained multiple times, only God brings things from non-existence to existence. So it follows that your claim that "God has done nothing" does not make sense for any time.
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Post by daveshn on Feb 13, 2012 17:25:47 GMT -6
Nothing happens except in accordance to the Eternal and Everlasting Will of God, and thus it makes no sense for you to claim that "God has done nothing since". God does not change at all, so He does not change from creating things to resting. Even stillness, that is, no motion, requires God to create that stillness. Prophet Muhammad stated that one of the names of God is transliterated as Al-Mateen. This name means, "The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted, and Who does not get tired." This makes logical sense. That which is interrupted is weak, limited, and that which is limited is in need of being specificed with that limit. The specifier? God, Who also has the name Al-Waalee -- The One Who owns things and manages them. You were born on a certain day. If someone claims that on that day, "God did nothing", they are saying that you were never created, because as I have explained multiple times, only God brings things from non-existence to existence. So it follows that your claim that "God has done nothing" does not make sense for any time. All the natural laws that God created + free will took care of events since the dawn of time. Having power doesn't mean you're using it. And my parents' choice to have sex on a certain day at a certain time caused a sperm and egg to mix.
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Post by Jafar on Feb 13, 2012 17:45:29 GMT -6
The one who does not use his power is weak, that simple. Not using power is rest.
Also, how do you explain miracles, that go against natural laws, if your claim is that "All the natural laws that God created + free will took care of events since the dawn of time"? No law of nature mentions trees testifying that no one is God but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God. No law of nature mentions Jesus curing blindness with a wipe of his hand. Miracles show us clearly that, while there certainly are causes of things, the cause does not create, and is like all other creations, needy, because causes can be opposed.
Also, do you control when you get sick? You may try your best to stay healthy but still become sick. So really, can a human fully take care of himself? He can only take care of himself and other creations to a certain extent, an extent specified by God.
Also, your parents' chose that certain day and time as God Willed them to choose. Yes, the act is a cause, but if as you claimed God was resting at that moment, then neither the act nor the cause would have occurred.
Still, just because we don't create anything doesn't mean we don't acquire anything. We acquire our deeds. We're responsible for them. I am not saying that we are empty vessels with no control. We have control--control which God gave us. And Who is God? The One Who is attributed with all proper perfection, and is clear of all imperfection, and resting is imperfection.
To put it another way, if a man drives from California to Utah, and then gets out of his car and turns it off, does the car drive itself intelligently to the man's intended destination of, say, Connecticut? Does the child grow to follow his parents if he has no parents? Does a tomato grow if it receives no water? Do drivers, parents and waters even exist if they are not created by God? No. A cause is a creation, and a creation does not create. In one moment uncountable things come into existence, and many things lose their existence. Obviously God does not rest.
There is a verse of the Qur'an which means, "You do not will anything except what God Willed for you to will." Similarly, you do not take care of anything unless God Willed for you to take care of it, and enabled you to do so with His Power, and knew of the care with His Knowledge.
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Post by eviceturboman on Feb 13, 2012 17:53:21 GMT -6
Sorry, but not everything requires a creator.
The Universe, for instance, might be an infinite void that never began and never ends. Understand? No, you don't. Our minds are so limited that we can only understand that there must always be a Beggining.
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Post by daveshn on Feb 13, 2012 19:05:25 GMT -6
EDIT: Ok, maybe it's my turn to have getting something not clear. If God is perfect, then everything God does comes out right the first time, right? Then if God created the universe and established how it'd work, God knew it was done correctly. So, at that moment, everything was as God wanted it, so there was never a reason for God to do anything ever again.
Now do you understand? The aftereffect of what God's done is worthy of thanks. But it's not God doing anything post-universe creation.
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Post by HomicidalChicken on Feb 14, 2012 2:31:07 GMT -6
I have to say Dave made more sense to me on this issue. It made sense to me because of your mention of predetermination. Since God would not be in need of time to determine the course every event will take and would not be in need of doubting Himself, wouldn't all events have always been determined and thus nothing would be required of God until people are to be judged?
Also I have a question to ask, is there a verse in the Qur'an explaining why God created us and the universe? God wouldn't be in need of creating something, and there would have been nothing else to cause Him to, so why?
And third, a side note. I've decided to read the Qur'an, and likely the works of Buddha, The Bible, and potentially The Vedas as well to further my knowledge on other religions. I was raised non-religous so I was taught very little on the subject and I don't enjoy being ignorant.
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